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lah62
04-24-2006, 09:42 AM
So, I'm in a "Spinning" class this morning, and the gal comes up with this move:

1 - sit waaay back in the saddle
2 - light resistance
3 - hands out in hp3 or arms "draped over the bars"
4 - pedal fast so that your "knees hit your ribs"
5 - abs sucked in

Is this a proper movement in some other kind of certification? She called it a "seated hover". I could count about 5 ways this is contraindicated in Spinning!

Anyone seen this one before??

la

alexkaboom
04-24-2006, 10:30 AM
Oh boy.... how creative can they get!?

I've seen hovers but this one takes it up a notch for me. :rolleyes:

Alex

britspin
04-24-2006, 10:47 AM
I am thinking of the ladies in the class, not ribs being hit by the knees.
Why would you?

lah62
04-24-2006, 10:54 AM
I didn't try the knees to the ribs thing, but can't imagine it's comfortable!! I just joined this facility (really a fantastic place!), and was trying to give the benefit of the doubt as far as this possibly being a movement from a different cert.

Like2bike - I do think I"ll have to ask her about the specifics of this one next time. Just can't stop thinking about it!

la

Brandy
04-24-2006, 11:02 AM
That sounds like one of the funky CI moves I saw the Spinning instructors do while I was out of town and taking Spinning classes at a new facility. I came back home with even more appreciation for the instructors at my gym and their ability to put together fun, safe, challenging profiles that don't need any funky moves to keep you entertained.

MattF
04-24-2006, 11:11 AM
Ouch... I'm trying to visualize that move... seems weird. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the Spinning program's core principles "If we cant do it on outside bikes, we wont do it on inside bikes" type of a thing... this seems kind of difficult to do outside :D

keifer
04-24-2006, 11:13 AM
Makes you wish when instructors do these 'creative moves' a 16 ton wieght would fall on top of them ... cause you know these people will never take the 'Contraindications to the Spinning Program' workshop.

Chikita Banana North
04-24-2006, 11:18 AM
I've seen this with Reebok instructors...teeth grinding as I watch this move!!!:eek:

jwspin
04-24-2006, 12:13 PM
In defense of Reebk instructors, which I am, I never saw anything like this in my certification class and would never consider such a move. It sounds more like a mis or non informed instructor trying to be creative without considering safety.

EuroD
04-24-2006, 12:55 PM
My first thought was 'what is she trying to achieve?' From reading what you've written, I don't see anything that would intice me to even try it. Just seems like she's worn herself out and has flopped.

Patrick
04-24-2006, 02:33 PM
My question, which moreso transcends beyond the actual move itself, is why do instructors feel the need to invent new positions? I don't feel like I have a limited arsenal... I have no desire to take poetic license with a program that works well as is. I've just never been compelled to invent myself some new riding techniques.

With the unlimited ways to combine the transitions, etc., you can probably accomplish whatever these people think they're getting without inventing something, "new and creative."

Anyone else wonder this?

Patrick

JFK
04-24-2006, 03:14 PM
My question, which moreso transcends beyond the actual move itself, is why do instructors feel the need to invent new positions? I don't feel like I have a limited arsenal... I have no desire to take poetic license with a program that works well as is. I've just never been compelled to invent myself some new riding techniques.

With the unlimited ways to combine the transitions, etc., you can probably accomplish whatever these people think they're getting without inventing something, "new and creative."

Anyone else wonder this?

Patrick

Jennifer Sage (funhog) considers those very questions in the Contraindications workshop. Some instructors are bored, or feel that their students are bored. They feel the need to "choreograph" something new because they don't have, or they doubt in their coaching abilities.

If you feel you don't have anything "new" to offer as a coach, and you are accustomed to creating new patterns and movements in a group exercise class, you will do the same thing on the bike. It becomes similar to a step or physio-ball; just another piece of exercise equipment on which to design movements.

It doesn't mean these instructors are wrong, or idiots or anything terrible. It means they are not approaching the cycling class with the most constructive mindset. Either because no one ever showed them how to do this, or they've kind of fallen off the path.

RaffCycles
04-24-2006, 03:19 PM
Patrick, nice take. I don't understand why instructors make up moves. I guess they aren't creative enough with their profile or lack the self confidence to teach the program so they need to establish themselves from everyone else by creating moves.

gretchb73
04-24-2006, 04:11 PM
Sounds like a very very contraindicated move to me-was this instructor Johnny G certified? A facility can actually get a stiff fine or lose its license for ~producing~ such off the wall moves. HP3 is NEVER supposed to be used in the seated position. I would definately speak to this girl or her supervisor about this issue.

ahall
04-24-2006, 04:27 PM
What about the the whole Bounce No Bounce" Thing?

How does JG feel about this ~ I like to hear from some Senior JG members on this. I just came through the 1st orientation and I have never heard of this but I went to a gym and they are really big on this thing ~ I had never seen it before?????

JFK
04-24-2006, 04:52 PM
Do you mean bouncing in the saddle (when seated) or eliminating bouncing while standing in HP2?

On the first, yes, you want to get rid of the bouncing when seated, either by increasing resistance, slowing the cadence or a combination of both.

On the second, no, not okay. We want normal body motion when standing. However, the torso should be bouncing (gently) down. If it looks like the torso is bouncing up, then the legs are being straightened at the bottom of the pedal stroke and the rider needs to work on this.

It is stressful on the knees to attempt to eliminate all natural movement from riding while standing. It feels hard, but that does not mean it's actually accomplishing anything.

HTH,

ahall
04-24-2006, 05:11 PM
Thanks for your reply ~ 2nd! I didn't think that was normal because I had never seen it before! But your right it was hard has hell . . thanks for explaining why it's not right! Because this gym - I have been to about 5 different classes and they all do it! I was like "what is this???" :eek:

kszspin
04-24-2006, 05:41 PM
It doesn't mean these instructors are wrong, or idiots or anything terrible. It means they are not approaching the cycling class with the most constructive mindset. Either because no one ever showed them how to do this, or they've kind of fallen off the path.

This was me back in 1998, got a paid Reebok "certification" (4-6 hrs and your on your own, no more continuing education necessary:D ). I think the first year of teaching IDC was absolute HE$$ for me. I really was clueless as far as designing safe, effective, PURPOSEFUL profiles. Plus had none of us there knew any better, we were all in the same sinking boat!

So yes, with my programmed group fitness instructor mindset of 8 years I played around with some silly ideas. But they were not done because I was stupid, lazy, lacked confidence or non creative (just creative in a non cycling sense:eek: ). I really knew no better. So I can understand how an instructor can do these moves. If I had someone take my class back then and constructively help me figure it all out (not put me down, but build me up :) ) I would have been sooo appreciative.

So we can look at these times when we take a class from someone, knowing that certain movements are CI, as an opportunity to offer them the info that they are not receiving. If said in the right way, our good intentions and good heart will come through to them.

Renee
04-24-2006, 07:13 PM
I never could understand how these moves came up until I picked up the Power Pacing for Indoor Cycling book. Here you can find "The Parallel Grip" which is a arm position with the elbows facing out and wrists internally rotated used when performing "Standind Dips"... (you don't want to know..) You'll also find the find the fingertip hold (used in standing run position), hip stretches on the bike and , gasp!, hand weights for upper body training on the bike.This book is probably 5 or 6 years old so maybe things have changed in this program. The fact remains, though, that if you are trained this way, than you think you are doing the right thing. Reading this sort of changed my perception of these moves in that I am understanding where some of them came from ans am a little more patient about trying to change behaviors.

raptor
04-25-2006, 12:24 AM
Ouch... I'm trying to visualize that move... seems weird. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the Spinning program's core principles "If we cant do it on outside bikes, we wont do it on inside bikes" type of a thing... this seems kind of difficult to do outside :D

Difficult, not impossible. The corollary to the principle is, "Just because you can do it outside doesn't mean you should do it inside." (My non-Spinning cert. shares the principle, but don't mention the corollary.)

Climbing a very steep, long trail, I've found myself in positions where I have to "clear" my knees in this manner.

I was like that instructor, a little bit, just three years ago. I hadn't figured out the corollary. So I decided one day to drop my butt off the back of the saddle and kept pedaling. I've done this while trying to descend a very steep trail. Fortunately, I was not the instructor that day, and I haven't heard anyone complain about an instructor cueing it.

Lynn

Robert
04-25-2006, 03:33 AM
Climbing a very steep, long trail, I've found myself in positions where I have to "clear" my knees in this manner.

Not sure what you mean here but, although possible to ride outside with your arms outstretched on a tri bar and lower your back so that the knees knock into your chest, it's a common mistake made by non-cyclists.

I guess the thought behind it is to become more aerodynamic but (a) it sacrifices efficient breathing so you'll lose power (b) it sacrifices comfort so you'll lose power and (c) it's actually not that aero: the width of the rider's wind profile is more important than the height.

Easy mistake to make but a mistake nonetheless...

Patrick
04-25-2006, 12:20 PM
http://www.studio-anselm.de/images/psspinning.jpg
Found this earlier this morning... was it something like this with the bounding against the chest with the knees?

raptor
04-25-2006, 10:06 PM
Not sure what you mean here but, although possible to ride outside with your arms outstretched on a tri bar and lower your back so that the knees knock into your chest, it's a common mistake made by non-cyclists.

I guess the thought behind it is to become more aerodynamic but (a) it sacrifices efficient breathing so you'll lose power (b) it sacrifices comfort so you'll lose power and (c) it's actually not that aero: the width of the rider's wind profile is more important than the height.

Easy mistake to make but a mistake nonetheless...

This is not a technique for road riding but technical mountain biking. I recall having done it in my life, not very often. Aerodynamics is definitely not the reason, because speed is about as fast as walking.

If the trail is steep enough, it'll shift your weight too much over the rear wheel, leading to a loss of steering traction on the front. Your bike's geometry also plays a role. Many mountain bikes are designed to "tuck" the rear wheel under the saddle, shortening the wheel base. In effect, you're always on the verge of riding a "wheelie." This can actually come in handy to avoid obstacles or change your line at the last instant. (At least, my balance used to be that good. :) )

With good rear-wheel traction, you can stand to help keep the front wheel down, and then worry about knocking your knees on the handlebars. The Slickrock Trail is a classic example of this: you feel like you're climbing up a wall, on pristine stone that sticks like flypaper. But if you're on a sketchy dirt trail, standing can easily take too much weight off the rear wheel, and you spin out. (Which means an instant stop unless you can bunny-hop your bike up a hill. You're a better rider than I in that case!)

Usually, the torso isn't that low, but can get very close to the knees. In situations like this, I'll also have shifted my weight back on the saddle to use the glutes - another CI indoor move but necessary in the right outdoor situation.

Oh, I can hardly wait for the Wasatch Crest Trail to open up now! Mid-July, it looks like.

Lynn

raptor
04-25-2006, 10:09 PM
Found this earlier this morning... was it something like this with the bounding against the chest with the knees?

Picture three thick phone books under the flywheel, raising it almost a foot, with the same hand position.

Lynn

Robert
04-26-2006, 03:50 AM
Ah, I know what you mean now! I learned this the hard way when I didn't do what you described, my front wheel lifted right up, back wheel slid under me and I did a 180-degree loop, landing on my head (anyone who doesn't wear a helmet is suicidal). Lesson learned!

For those that haven't sampled the dubious pleasures of mountain biking, at least once in your life. And, if you're sane, that'll be your last! :D


This is not a technique for road riding but technical mountain biking. I recall having done it in my life, not very often. Aerodynamics is definitely not the reason, because speed is about as fast as walking.

If the trail is steep enough, it'll shift your weight too much over the rear wheel, leading to a loss of steering traction on the front. Your bike's geometry also plays a role. Many mountain bikes are designed to "tuck" the rear wheel under the saddle, shortening the wheel base. In effect, you're always on the verge of riding a "wheelie." This can actually come in handy to avoid obstacles or change your line at the last instant. (At least, my balance used to be that good. :) )

With good rear-wheel traction, you can stand to help keep the front wheel down, and then worry about knocking your knees on the handlebars. The Slickrock Trail is a classic example of this: you feel like you're climbing up a wall, on pristine stone that sticks like flypaper. But if you're on a sketchy dirt trail, standing can easily take too much weight off the rear wheel, and you spin out. (Which means an instant stop unless you can bunny-hop your bike up a hill. You're a better rider than I in that case!)

Usually, the torso isn't that low, but can get very close to the knees. In situations like this, I'll also have shifted my weight back on the saddle to use the glutes - another CI indoor move but necessary in the right outdoor situation.

Oh, I can hardly wait for the Wasatch Crest Trail to open up now! Mid-July, it looks like.

Lynn

britspin
04-26-2006, 10:56 AM
Whats that saying? Downhill racers are mountain bikers with their brains taken out.

Robert
04-27-2006, 04:31 AM
Whats that saying? Downhill racers are mountain bikers with their brains taken out.

Sounds about right.... :D ;)

powerjumpgirl
04-29-2006, 12:47 PM
How strange, it sounds like a combination of things, but how would you breathe and why what benefit is there to this move? If it is for a sprint, you would be hunched over so you would not be able to move the air, if it was a seated climb, the resistance is waaaay wrong, for certain not an endurance profile.... odd, it would be interesting to see what she has to say about it....

rick316
04-29-2006, 03:33 PM
I am taking too long reading some of these threads recently...

However,with being said,I too have done these-thought I invented them:cool: -but obviously not:D .They came about from 2 situations,(1) A huge lack of knowledge & (2) the want to "improve" or re-invent the wheel.If you could ride a bike sitting up,why not do the same but low down.Hell it was something else to do coz you can't do popcorn jumps and fast sprints all calss long,can you?!