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gilberth
04-02-2006, 10:27 AM
Hovers, popcorn jumps, pushups, standing starts, and sprints with little or no resistence are all well know concepts to JG Spinning instructors and are to be avoided like the plague. In fact the term contraindications is used to describe them and a course is offered to point out the reasons why they're unsafe. Since these moves are used in many other programs I'd like to hear from others if you feel that these charges about unsafe moves are overblown and if you're aware of any supporting studies to prove your point.
Howard

raptor
04-02-2006, 10:58 AM
In every case, the fallback position is that a CI move provides little or no training benefit to the typical indoor rider, and usually involves a risk of injury. Some CI moves are obvious injury risks, some are bad for the bike, some are reserved for serious well-trained athletes willing to accept and capable of mitigating the risk.

Studies of such things would be ethically tricky, so it's usually theory and logic leading to the CI designation.

I'm speaking of moves that *I* consider CI. There are probably moves prohibited in one program or other that don't fit my definition, though none come to mind.

Lynn

gilberth
04-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Lynn,
As a Spinning instructor I'm aware of the logic of CI moves and avoid taking classes from other instructors who use them. However I also recognize how prevalent they are in other programs. And the people behind these programs are some experienced and recogizable names in the area of cycling and athletic conditioning. I find it hard to believe that they would use or allow moves in their programs that were unsafe. So I'd like to hear from some of these other program instructors about these so called unsafe moves.
Howard

megale3
04-02-2006, 02:01 PM
Hi Howard and Lynn,
I have had a few orientations under my belt now and not one of them has said that any of these are ok. So if there is a type that does, I would like to know which. I also have an observation about realism and CI.
Standing starts though realistic to out door riding (stop lights to velodrome racing) frankly shouldn't be done and we need to be realize what is a ballistic move, causes RMI's, and literally has nothing to do with the dynamics of riding a bike.
Sometimes what is done on an out door bike does not cross over well to indoor so when we say "if you don't do it on a bike outside we don't do it in" is that exceeding parameters to our special populations of riders? So lets look at it like this as a comparison and food for this discussion.

We do standing starts out doors we don't inside.

Some orientations say we can do multiple jumps inside but realistically we don't outdoors.

Both are contrary to what is an actual but both have possible determents in overuse injuries to joints.

Keeping the class realistic is a great idea but balancing what is fun, non-intimidating and effective between the two is our best efforts.

Megale

gilberth
04-02-2006, 02:31 PM
In just a few minutes I came across these few moves that would be considered CI through Johnny G Spinning Prog. I’m sure there are others.
Howard


LeMond-
ILT: Isolated Leg Training. Riding with one leg in to improve pedal stroke performance; a great way to build strength especially on the upstroke.

Reebok-
Explosions
Standing Position, medium-high resistance 6 1⁄2 -7; STOP PEDALS parallel. EXPLODE push FRONT pedal down into short (15-20 sec) power sprint.

and Individual Leg Training

kszspin
04-02-2006, 06:32 PM
.

Reebok-
Explosions
Standing Position, medium-high resistance 6 1⁄2 -7; STOP PEDALS parallel. EXPLODE push FRONT pedal down into short (15-20 sec) power sprint.

and Individual Leg Training

Howard, I first got a cycle Reebok cert in 1998 and for some reason don't remember the explosions but I DO remember the ILT's being done with the foot out of the cage, resting on the center frame (by the water bottle cage). I actually did them then for about a year until it got a little dicey and almost had accidents in class :eek: . BTW, our Cycle Reebok certification specialist's name was Robert Sherman.

JFK
04-02-2006, 09:08 PM
I think I've said parts of this elsewhere, so please forgive me if I'm repeating myself ;):

All certification organizations have to draw the line somewhere. Ideally, they are drawing lines based on data concerning the risk of injury, the benefits of the activity/movement and so on. But some of it is a little like betting - you pays your money and you takes your chances. That is, no one can say for certain whether riding stretched out on the bars (say in HP3) will lead to back injury. There are certainly many people who could ride that way day in and day out with no ill effects. However, since riding in that position doesn't add any fitness benefit, at least one program basically says "why take the risk?" Other programs don't see it that way.

Some reasoning may make more sense to some than to others. To my mind, if something doesn't add a benefit, why bother? Especially if it adds some risk. And yes, getting up off your couch to exercise does entail risk, hey, so does living. But the overall benefits of activity so outweigh the risks that it is, in almost all cases, worth getting up off said couch.

It would be a real pity if we finally get someone up off that couch, only to lead them to injury. I feel that my primary job in teaching a class (any class) is to guide people to do it safely. So they can live to ride another day.

My $0.03, such as it is. :)

Legspeed
04-02-2006, 09:30 PM
Ideally, they are drawing lines based on data concerning the risk of injury,

I think there's just a wee bit of difference between anecdotal evidence and "data". As Gilberth and Lynn adroitly pointed out, there are no emperically based studies of this issue. So when a program says "contra-indicated", the most it can mean is: "not in our opinion".

Not that there's anything wrong with having an opinion!

Guava Cycle Girl
04-02-2006, 10:57 PM
Hey everyone :)

This is an interesting topic and one I am sure of many concerns for instructors. When I first started teaching, I was always asking what is safe and what isn't, what new trend will prove to cause this injury or that. The more curious I got the more my poor professors at UBC in the human kinetics department had to listen to be ask a million questions and after a few times I think a light bulb went off.

First, because there are so many certifications out there, which ones are the right ones? Is it the company that makes the most money? but what are their credentials? We read the content but can the author back up their claims or have the credentials to do so?

In a world where anyone can sell anything i think the bottome line is that we as instructors are responsible for the safety of our participants. I am sure we can all agree that is a huge priority for us, which is where the concerns stem. A company can offer a course but who is governing them, has scientific data on spinning and injury been produce and then the next question we have to ask ourselves is who paid for that study and what was their gain. I know its a sad world that has come down to this.

As a student of human kinetics and human performance we have to learn alot about how a body works (bio-mechanically) and you don't have to attend a kinesiology department to learn all about, you just have to learn about the bio-mechanics of our body. Think about the move that causes you concern, the joints that the exercise may place stress on, the range of motion of the joint and how can you make that movement safe and what would make that movement dangerous. A great place to read awesome material that i have always loved is www.humankinetics.com (http://www.humankinetics.com). they have amazing, education, and scientifically based books that are easy to read and affordable.

Cycling is just like any other sport. If you know how the body works you can make it safe, enjoyable and fun.

For example: The Hover: Now i have heard many times that this is dangerous to do but have we sat down and asked why? In fact it is a great exercise for your hamstrings and glutes but as an instructor here is how you can make it safe. Tension should be at least 40% or more so that stress is reduce from the knee joints and hip joints, have students be on their seats and gently lift their buttocks up off the seat, have a wide grip on the handle bar, keep their tummy tights to support their lower back and have their back generally flat but on a slight incline, ensuring they are not rounding thier shoulder blades. To keep the neck in line with the spine, have them look at the handle bars. I use cues like "shoulders in your back pockets", "no white knucking" (avoid stress on finger and hand joints), "focused strokes", "use your glutes and think of your hamstrings". Any exercise held for a long period of time will become dangerous, so easily mix it in with something else that is opposite like a seated ride with less tension 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off.

As instructors we are all smart people and whether you have a degree or not, don't cut yourself short because you care about your members and they rely on you for their safety. Just because a company is a big name doesn't mean you can't check them out and find out their credentials. In my opinnion, the danger is when we trust an individual or company without questioning. Someone who is confident in their work and research will be more than happy to explain why it is the way they say it is. A governing body is definetly required, because we wouldn't want anyone teaching a class without qualifications but just spend a little more time thinking about who you are going to see for your certifications.

And remember trends, exercises and techniques change all the time. Think about the moves we used to do with the pink head bands and the bright spandex? I know the clothes are more of a scary thoughts.

If anyone would like to learn how to make a move safer or have a question i would love to help, either post me or feel free to email me Rachel@guavafitness.com. :rolleyes: I don't have all the answers but i would sure love to help in any way i can :)

britspin
04-03-2006, 03:50 AM
Good points all, as for the trusting an individual company & its 'words of wisdom', I think it is fair to say that a very large percentage of the folks here, ARE here because they want more than blind acceptance of the party line, believing what they feel more than what they read.
Research as you point out is not the be all & end all, who is paying...and why is very important.
I have RPM (Les Mills) research & I attended the seminar explaining it, but I still have many doubts about the program.

Robert
04-03-2006, 03:53 AM
Howard, I first got a cycle Reebok cert in 1998 and for some reason don't remember the explosions but I DO remember the ILT's being done with the foot out of the cage, resting on the center frame (by the water bottle cage). I actually did them then for about a year until it got a little dicey and almost had accidents in class :eek: . BTW, our Cycle Reebok certification specialist's name was Robert Sherman.

ILT is used in cycling training, usually on an indoor trainer, to improve the pedalling efficiency. BUT, and it is a big but, the feet stay in the pedals at all times. All that happens is that, e.g., the left leg goes lazy and all pedalling is made by the right, making the rider aware of the pedalling circle in an effort to make it as smooth as possible. Then repeat with other leg before joining in with both and resuming normal pedalling. Also, this is done on very light resistance, e.g., as in a warm up, with moderately high cadence (80-100).

veespin
04-03-2006, 06:37 AM
Studies of such things would be ethically tricky, so it's usually theory and logic leading to the CI designation.

More likely successfully filed lawsuits and disability claims.

Josh Taylor did a bike fit workshop at last year's ECA conference and mentioned that MDA is dealing with more and more of the above and emphasized the importance of keeping a handle on the CI moves in class with a view to risk management.

All the studies in the world won't tell you whether any one move will injure any one individual (just like you can't say with 100% certainty that a smoker will definitely get lung cancer) but there's probably a wealth of literature from the world of orthopaedics to provide strong evidence of a link between poor biomechanics and injury. This being the case, rest assured, a personal injury lawyer will sniff it out.

For me, forget the lawsuits, I'd be horrified if my poor advice (as either an act of commission or ommision) led to someone being injured in class....or even injuring someone else. The day I saw someone almost topple while doing a hamstring stretch on the handlebars of the bike the thought that popped into my head was that if I'd been the one on the next door bike, rather than his burly pal, I'd be squashed flat.

Vivienne

Legspeed
04-03-2006, 08:46 AM
successfully filed lawsuits and disability claims

I think these are about as common as the research studies.

keifer
04-03-2006, 03:32 PM
ILT is used in cycling training, usually on an indoor trainer, to improve the pedalling efficiency. BUT, and it is a big but, the feet stay in the pedals at all times. All that happens is that, e.g., the left leg goes lazy and all pedalling is made by the right, making the rider aware of the pedalling circle in an effort to make it as smooth as possible. Then repeat with other leg before joining in with both and resuming normal pedalling. Also, this is done on very light resistance, e.g., as in a warm up, with moderately high cadence (80-100).

As a Mad Dogg certified Instructor (sorry folks I've never seen the other programs in my city) I did the CI workshop late last year, and this ILT was not listed as CI, and it's something I've been taught as a participant and something I do in my warmups now as per what Robert wrote.

I know I had Hovers taught to me in a class, but I have never done them in my classes ... I think so long as we think saftey first and foremost would we want anyone to try something that is not a natural movement or puts them in an unbalanced position ... my 2 cents Canadian so that what 0.25 in US ;)

veespin
04-03-2006, 03:53 PM
As a Mad Dogg certified Instructor (sorry folks I've never seen the other programs in my city) I did the CI workshop late last year, and this ILT was not listed as CI, and it's something I've been taught as a participant and something I do in my warmups now as per what Robert wrote.

The ILT per Robert's post appears to be congruent with MDA teaching per Jen Sage's Pedal Stroke 101 class at the recent ECA conference.

The CI move is disengaging the non-working leg from the pedal and parking it wherever feels comfortable. This is a move that's quite common on, for instance, Spinerval™ DVDs......where coach Troy has his class on CycleOps trainers, that really do have a convenient resting place for the spare leg.

Also, remember, working with yer road bike on a trainer is very different from a Spin bike.....if the free leg wanders a bit and interacts with the pedal on a road bike, it's a very different proposition from having the pedal from a Spin bike crack you in the back of the leg if your reactions aren't lightening quick.

Vivienne

gilberth
04-03-2006, 04:02 PM
I was looking at the LeMond forum on this website half expecting to see a lot of CI in their lessons. What I found really surprised and enlightened me The lessons are available as PDF files and look pretty good. I especially like the Start Up for beginning riders. It's 28 min and has some good moves. The only thing I saw that approaches CI were some accelerations 10 sec @ 110-120 RPM and 15 sec @ 110-13- RPM and a climb at 55-65 RPM. It would be incorrect to saw it's not a well designed and safe program and the best part is they have the Pilot computers
....... it (supposedly) calculates your distance ridden in addition to calorie burn, time ave. cadence, ave HR, etc.
Word is they're going to have a PowerTap option coming soon.
I think we need to be open to all good ideas no matter what the source. For too long I felt that JG Spinning was the only safe program and all non JG instructors had gone over to the dark side.
BTW MDA is a bunch of luddites is they think we don't need/can't handle a cadence meter. Check out the LeMond Pilot

veespin
04-03-2006, 04:42 PM
BTW MDA is a bunch of luddites is they think we don't need/can't handle a cadence meter. Check out the LeMond Pilot

Don't know much about the LeMond programme so I wouldn't care to pass an opinion on it.

This LeMond Pilot, however, checks in at apporox $130 a unit......who's expected to pay for this. Is it a common feature at gyms that use these bikes?

Vivienne......not a Luddite but a realist when it comes to what the general public is willing to pay for.

kszspin
04-03-2006, 05:38 PM
I love doing ILT's, in fact I'm thinking of making an entire profile with that one focus. Great for teaching neuromuscular coordination and conditioning, as well as symmetry and pedaling technique.
BUT, I do NOT do them as I posted was taught to me by Cycle Reebok some 8 yrs ago. Just wanted to make sure that part was clear. We always should keep our feet attached to our pedals ;) .

Speaking of lawsuits....STUPID people apparantly exist in this country (probably in Canada too Keifer :p ), cause my husband and I just bought a Poulan weed wacker/edger thingy at Lowe's this weekend, come home and open the box and included is a belt/strap thingy to wear the weed wacker with a BIG sign that is on your butt that says STAY BACK 50 FEET! So I ask you, why do you think that is? Apparently common sense was not enough for someone somewhere once!

gilberth
04-03-2006, 07:02 PM
Vivenne,
The LeMond bikes come with the Pilot mounted on the handlebars. The bikes are about the same price as the Star Trak and reading the LeMond forum indicates they are well liked.
Howard
WSSC '07
Venice Beach
Time to bring it home

Guava Cycle Girl
04-04-2006, 02:15 AM
Hey Britspin,

Point taken exactly! It is so easy to just take what people say and believe it. but when you pay for information it is so important it is backed up by something and in my opinnion a little more than something. I don't think anyone is better than anyone in any industry. Whether someone is new or experiences we all have something to offer and experience combinded with education is a lethal dose and when you throw in the compassion and love we all have for teaching...look out world here come the spinning or cycling instructors :)

"Never, ever doubt your abilities. To the whole world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the whole world."

I think especially in the fitness industry people trust us with their health, fitness and livelihood and we need to be held accountable to what we prescribe, so try your best to do what you think is best and if you don't have the answer or are unsure a real hero will ask for help or say they don't know.

Keep up the great work! Wow i wish i could just travel all over the world and experience everyone's classes! How great would that be? Maybe I will buy a lotto ticket tommorrow :) If i win I will see ya in class! Anyone teach on a beach ?

Cheers Rachel:)

Pink
04-04-2006, 06:11 AM
Hey, Kelly, you could wear that sign at the WSSC reception. We'd have no problems finding you...but we'd be afraid to get within 50 feet.

rick316
04-04-2006, 06:42 AM
Wow i wish i could just travel all over the world and experience everyone's classes! How great would that be? Maybe I will buy a lotto ticket tommorrow :) If i win I will see ya in class! Anyone teach on a beach ?

Cheers Rachel:)

No,I teach in a gym:p

snowbunny
04-04-2006, 09:31 PM
Safety....like with alot of things...it is "building a base", or foudation. When asked "why" you don't do certain moves...tell the members....educate them...they don't know any difference.

A prime example is last week, two members and I took a cycle class of a different instructor...just for fun. Both of the members gave me "the look" when that instructor did CI's. (we didn't do them...ha,ha...) but the next day at my class...whew...these two were chatting to the class all about it...and that they knew better because of what they had learned. (See...like the old saying of parents preaching to their children....yes, some things actually get thru and they do listen. )Score one for safety and not doing CI's.


So with the original post....here are some CI moves that I have read and I remember taking this list to my original certification class. The master instructor said, no, no and no again to each and every movement.
I am not certain which certification teaches or allows them, but MD said "N O !!! ".

Oh crap, I went to get my list, and it isn't in the safe place where I put it. Just when you need something...oh well...here are some that I remember:

explosions; popcorn jumps; hovers; isolations; movement when you lower you body slightly below the seat; figure 8's; any leans to side; freeze; any moves where you are way forward over the handlebars or way, way back behind the seat so that your arms are stretched out ...not to mention what this is doing to your back and knees; one handers; no handers; arms on back; bobbing- ducking- weaving and other "evasive" techniques; removing seats or lowering them; seated climb with hand position 3> hyperextending the back, etc.; pushups on the bike;

Those are the ones I can remember from the list...sorry I couldn't find the original list...I know there are more.

Well, I think this is more than 2cents...maybe it is around a dollar.....

Snow:D

megale3
04-04-2006, 11:17 PM
Hey snowy can we have a astrix by this one
**seated climb with hand position 3> hyperextending the back**
I mean if it does create a ROM problem then fine because I know some guys with really long arms (bodys too) that look so dang comfortable almost upright with their hands out on the "horns" .
Megale

Robert
04-05-2006, 03:36 AM
Hey snowy can we have a astrix by this one
**seated climb with hand position 3> hyperextending the back**
I mean if it does create a ROM problem then fine because I know some guys with really long arms (bodys too) that look so dang comfortable almost upright with their hands out on the "horns" .
Megale

Hahahaha - I know the types, they're long and lanky and look ideally suited to triathlons!

Likewise, I much prefer doing standing climbs in HP2 as it's a more comfortable and natural position (for an outdoor cyclist like me). But obviously I don't preach it, esp. as most have never ridden a bike outside, much less in anger!

But as for the rest of the list... WTF? :eek: Body lower than the seat? How???

cyclefreak
04-05-2006, 06:14 AM
I've heard a couple of people mention LeMond workouts now...are they online somewhere? I've been to two LeMond certifications and I'm not aware of anything available online...I'd love to see some stuff if it's available.

Thanks

(and just for the record, we were taught ILTs in our training session)

marnster
04-05-2006, 08:16 AM
Oh my...I am ashamed to admit it, but we used to hold onto the handle bars in HP2 and slide our butts off the back of the saddle and pedal - just imagine that! The class LOVED this move. That is one way to get your bum lower than the seat, Robert :o I guess the body would follow if you lost grip and landed SMACK on the floor! :eek:

snowbunny
04-06-2006, 05:56 AM
Marnstar, that is so funny...I guess you could say that class kicked you a_ _....

Think of the movement....Now, for proper knee alignment, when you are seated, you should look down you kneecap towards the pedal to see the axle/bar that comes under your foot. This should be in line. (There are exceptions to some set ups....but I am talking in general terms...) . If your knee if too far forward or too far backward...then adjust your seat so your knee is in line correctly. (If you are NOT doing this, you COULD be causing stress on the knee area...).
So back to the movement of having your rear behind the seat...look where your knees are.....get the picture...
STRESS-O-Rama. Also, think of the physics...the "pressure"...lack of a better word has to go somewhere, your back and knees get the blunt of it.
Without being too technical....I hope I explained this well.

Snow

Yes, I know some "movements" seem so cool and fun....
and they add a little interest...but let's look at the breakdown...and safety....and "potential" for injury. As a poster once said...we are in "risk management", and if there is the possibility of "risk" from doing a movement....err on the side of safety.

marnster
04-06-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm in agreement 100% snowbunny :) I just laugh about it now and think...what in the world was I thinking!?!? Another instructor introduced it because she had participated in an IC class in Germany (I think...somewhere in Europe) and the instructor had done this :eek:

Throw in the push-ups, squats while pedalling (no bounce whatsoever), and many other movements considered CI in JG and those were our classes :rolleyes: I'm all about safety and proper technique now, and thanks to this site and others, I'm still learning!

snowbunny
04-13-2006, 06:42 AM
Robert...yes, I don't know what the actual move is called, but you somehow squat down with your behind being a little lower than the seat....which if you think about the impact of stress on your knees...whew!!!

Sometimes you wonder....who in the world came up with this move....and why....just look at your body....and could it be causing injury...>>> I guess they are "clueless".

chambergal
04-14-2006, 07:55 PM
I now teach at 24 Hour Fitness and they have their own CEU programs. Last year we had a class that was about ILT without taking the "resting" foot out of the cage or unclipping. Personally, I found it difficult because you have to really mentally concentrate on just having one leg work when it's just human nature to have both legs moving.

I never have had a course, other than this one, that spoke on ILT, and I've taken a few classes from instructors who use it, but found it difficult to place my "unused" foot.

The 24 Hour course was geared to 3 drills for max efficiency: from my handouts:
"The way to improve mechanical effiiciency is to learn to apply force through as much of the pedal stroke as possible, esp. throuigh the top and bottom." (quote from Chris Carmichael:

The Test - pedal with one leg only, totally relaxing your other leg while it is resting (ON THE PEDL OR IN THE CAGE). You will quickly discover "dead spots" that need to be eliminated, as well as, an imbalance from right side to left side coordination and muscle recruitment.

Relaxing the upper body is the first step in improving efficiency.

Eliminate bouncing

Then it talks about top quadrant, bottom quadrant and recover quadrant of the pedal stroke.

Here's the first drill (which again, I did not like this class and someone brought up the CIs, but this was the course, so no real answer there):

Drill #1 - One Legged Drill
* Will be much easier to engrain the correct motor patterns when your attention is not competing with aerobic intensisties and you can concentrate on the task of improving technique.
- Fixed gear
- Minimize movement
-Elminate dead spots by focusing on top and bottom quadrants.

Then here is the profile for the ILT:
30 seconds left leg works while right leg is completely relaxed in the pedal. Next 30 seconds right leg works while left leg is completely relaxed in the pedal. Both legs then work together for one minute. Repeat this series 3 more times for a total of 8 minutes. Continue the drill, but change to 45 seconds on each leg with only 30 seconds both together. Repeat once more for a total of 4 minutes (this is a 12 minute song).

I just don't find it simple to "relax completely in the pedal" and the tendency is to remove one foot and risk getting hit by a pedal or being unbalanced on the seat.