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View Full Version : The Official Keiser stance on Hovers



Funhog
06-22-2011, 09:34 PM
In case you were wondering what the official stance by Keiser was on the silly move "hovers", here is an article (http://www.indoorcyclingassociation.com/public/Keiser_Indoor_Cycling_Evolution__progressing_and_m oving_on_from_hovers.cfm) written by Suzette O'Byrne, one of their top Master Instructors who has been with them since the very beginning. They may have been a part of the program many years ago, but not since 2002! Keiser "Keeps it Real".

Please share this article with any other instructors you know who teach on Keiser bikes, and with your program directors. Some people still seem to think that they are condoned by Keiser.

yumipon
06-23-2011, 06:49 AM
In case you were wondering what the official stance by Keiser was on the silly move "hovers", here is an article (http://www.indoorcyclingassociation.com/public/Keiser_Indoor_Cycling_Evolution__progressing_and_m oving_on_from_hovers.cfm) written by Suzette O'Byrne, one of their top Master Instructors who has been with them since the very beginning. They may have been a part of the program many years ago, but not since 2002! Keiser "Keeps it Real".

Please share this article with any other instructors you know who teach on Keiser bikes, and with your program directors. Some people still seem to think that they are condoned by Keiser.

Thank you very much for the article, Jennifer. I understand why one of the master instructor from Keiser was telling instructors to shift your body side to side and he himself was shifting the entire body. I was surprised to hear, but thought it was just him. So, what are they for Keiser if they are not a part of the program?:confused:

Funhog
06-23-2011, 06:43 PM
Thank you very much for the article, Jennifer. I understand why one of the master instructor from Keiser was telling instructors to shift your body side to side and he himself was shifting the entire body. I was surprised to hear, but thought it was just him. So, what are they for Keiser if they are not a part of the program?:confused:

They are nothing. No one should do hovers. No program, no rider, no instructor, no student!

Todd S
06-23-2011, 10:14 PM
They are nothing. No one should do hovers. No program, no rider, no instructor, no student!

If you do hovers you are dead to me.

(Too harsh?)

zoepup
06-24-2011, 08:36 AM
That is a really good, short and to the point article. I like how she is so open about how everything has evolved. What we thought was right 10 years ago may no longer hold true... so now on to the bigger question...

How much of what we do today will we look back on in 5-10 years and think "What were we thinking?" :eek:

Funhog
06-24-2011, 10:35 AM
That is a really good, short and to the point article. I like how she is so open about how everything has evolved. What we thought was right 10 years ago may no longer hold true... so now on to the bigger question...

How much of what we do today will we look back on in 5-10 years and think "What were we thinking?" :eek:

Well Frank, if we as indoor cycling instructors follow the principles of proper cycling - even those who do not ride a bike, then I don't think we'll be regretting anything 5, 10 or 20 years from now. Cycling is the most studied sport in the world, with over 100 years of the movements being analyzed. Scientists KNOW what proper biomechanics are. They KNOW the laws of physics. And they know a lot about physiology and how the body responds to exercise for the most part. Sure, there are some things that we don't know everything about, things that may change, especially our understanding of HR and some of the adaptations that take place (and the mechanism of how they take place), or maybe how and why certain cadences produce X HR in one person but Y in another. But that shouldn't affect HOW we ride the bike. We may find out things later that cause us to change intensity or duration, but proper form shouldn't change. Ever.

Just ride the bike!

Funhog
06-24-2011, 10:41 AM
And yes, I agree with you about how refreshing it is that she is open about all the changes that have taken place, and that she too "used" to do things she wouldn't do now. By admitting that they were wrong, and that due to the fact that they have evolved in their knowledge of biomechanics, that makes it far more likely that other instructors will follow suit and remove it from their repertoire. If they just swept it under the rug and pretended it didn't exist in their past, then fewer instructors would take note.

Few companies admit the error of their past. There are a couple that really should...now.

yumipon
06-24-2011, 03:34 PM
They are nothing. No one should do hovers. No program, no rider, no instructor, no student!

Does keiser have anybody if Suzette O'Byrne is not the one? And, how many of you instruct your students to ride side to side as Suzette is pushing? I see some instructors who have taken Keiser's workshop, shift their bodies from side to side to the point one arm is fully extended(almost look like doing merenge dance in angle). It is hard to tell students differently if the master from Keiser is telling instructors one thing and they follow what they learn in the workshop. I may be one of he few who say differently. Did I miss something? I thought you were not supposed to go side to side...:confused:

Funhog
06-24-2011, 04:40 PM
Does keiser have anybody if Suzette O'Byrne is not the one? And, how many of you instruct your students to ride side to side as Suzette is pushing? I see some instructors who have taken Keiser's workshop, shift their bodies from side to side to the point one arm is fully extended(almost look like doing merenge dance in angle). It is hard to tell students differently if the master from Keiser is telling instructors one thing and they follow what they learn in the workshop. I may be one of he few who say differently. Did I miss something? I thought you were not supposed to go side to side...:confused:

As far as I know most programs teach to let the body rock side to side. You have to. Think about a bike outside, especially when there is resistance (as in a big gear or climb). You rock your bicycle side to side underneath you. This allows you not only to gain leverage as you push on the pedals, but also to release the energy generated while pedaling. If the bike doesn't move side to side, you're not going to get up that hill very well. (If you don't believe me....try it)

Indoors we obviously can't do that because the bike doesn't move, so we must compensate for that lack of movement by moving our bodies side to side as we stand up to pedal against resistance. Otherwise it's just plain uncomfortable and ineffective.

Excessive side to side movement? Now that is silly, especially if you pull yourself so far that your face is near the handlebars.

Again, it just comes down to this: Keep it Real!

CycleGuy
06-24-2011, 11:12 PM
Does keiser have anybody if Suzette O'Byrne is not the one? And, how many of you instruct your students to ride side to side as Suzette is pushing? I see some instructors who have taken Keiser's workshop, shift their bodies from side to side to the point one arm is fully extended(almost look like doing merenge dance in angle). It is hard to tell students differently if the master from Keiser is telling instructors one thing and they follow what they learn in the workshop. I may be one of he few who say differently. Did I miss something? I thought you were not supposed to go side to side...:confused:

I can't remember if it is mentioned in the article or not (too lazy to check), but Suzette grew up around and riding mountain bikes on some of the best technical riding terrain in the world - the North Shore mountains in Vancouver, BC. She truly knows what it is like to ride and ride hard, both on the trail and the road.

I have only seen/known two Keiser Master Trainers (Suzette & Krista Popowych), so they may not be a full representation of all the Keiser Master Trainers, but both have demonstrated what I would consider to be good road skills in their workshops. Their movements are well done and without excessive exaggeration (unless they are attempting to demonstrate the silliness of some movement). The side-to-side movement that Suzette and Krista have demonstrated in their training sessions that I have attended are not excessive and are more of the 'sway' or 'rocking' that Jennifer refers to and what I would expect to see outside on a climb.

Even in the saddle, when pedaling hard, there is a slight sway to the upper body. It is a response to the movement of the legs when the upper body is relaxed and not held tight. I could imagine some instructors looking at a Master Trainer doing that little sway and taking that into their classes to have the participants reaching down to the floor as if to pick up a water bottle.

I think what you are seeing is the age old adage that if a little is good, a lot has to be better. And it sounds to be like those instructors truly do not accept the approach of keeping it real. They sound more like the type of instructor who wants to bring a step class on the bike.

I hope to god they never watch a pro tour and hear Phil Liggett describe a rider as "dancing on the pedals". God knows how they will interpret that! :eek:

Vivienne
06-25-2011, 04:44 AM
Excessive side to side movement? Now that is silly, especially if you pull yourself so far that your face is near the handlebars.


That would be The Stimulus Package For Local Dentists Look™ (to go with the Wer Nail Polish Look™ ;) )

Thing is, I find that if you're relaxed enough, your upper body tends to "give" a bit anyway. I've always felt a bit foolish trying for that rhythm release that you see so much of at WSSC, for instance (rather, I think it looks a bit foolish)

When I did my CycleOps cert. workshop with Joey Adams, the other guys were roadies (so not Roadies™, BTW) and, on their bikes on the PowerBeam Pro trainers and the CycleOps, tended to be pretty still. Joey was trying to get them to acheive that flow they'd have naturally on the bike "Look at Vivienne", he said ".....poetry in motion" Say what!?! Moi !????

Tried to do the rhytm release a few times in the past and decided it was best left to the Brazilians etc. but I guess it just happens when you're focusing on doing other things right (like trying to keep up with 360 Watt Phil on a bike going no-where)

Vivienne

yumipon
06-25-2011, 11:10 PM
As far as I know most programs teach to let the body rock side to side. You have to. Think about a bike outside, especially when there is resistance (as in a big gear or climb). You rock your bicycle side to side underneath you. This allows you not only to gain leverage as you push on the pedals, but also to release the energy generated while pedaling. If the bike doesn't move side to side, you're not going to get up that hill very well. (If you don't believe me....try it)

Indoors we obviously can't do that because the bike doesn't move, so we must compensate for that lack of movement by moving our bodies side to side as we stand up to pedal against resistance. Otherwise it's just plain uncomfortable and ineffective.

Excessive side to side movement? Now that is silly, especially if you pull yourself so far that your face is near the handlebars.

Again, it just comes down to this: Keep it Real!


Since natural movement, or rythmic release let your upper body go side to side, I would think that is what we do without being told. When you instruct the class or tell your students, "Move your upper body side to side", it almost sounds like you want them to go beyond "rythmic release." As Vivienne mentioned, I saw over exaggerated movements at WSSC. I thought some of them were too much.

powerpedaler
11-06-2011, 03:57 PM
I use the words "use your body momentum to drive up the hill".This seems to have the desired effect of creating the outdoor feel without excessive body roll!

Viking
11-25-2011, 11:27 AM
slight side to side may be ok, but so many people are bouncing up and down. maybe none of this matters, yet, if you're a cyclist working out indoors during the winter, bad habits could be formed. too much side to side motion of the body, bouncing up and down and the excessive dropping of the shoulders and chin during a hard seated climb. then add looking down at the floor - bad habits are hard to change. it's my feeling the instructor should watch and remind people in the class - however, many classes are done in the dark and what can be seen then??

on a side note - the "keep it real" book has been a great addition to our class profiles where i teach.