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Vivienne
02-19-2011, 06:09 PM
Again, just thinking ahead....

I'm wondering about the 20 min. "time trial" for calculating functional threshold power. If I understand it correctly, you use 95% of the power generated over this 20 minute best effort if you were using something like an SRM or PowerTap.

Given that the Keisers require you to stop the pedals for a few seconds before and after to give you the average power production......and that this means a minute or so of build up before and cool down after the 20 minute test before you get a "number"......would this mean that you still do the .95 calculation to use for functional threshold power?

Vivienne

Todd S
02-19-2011, 08:19 PM
The critical power model is much more valid and would simply require an additional 3 to 5 minute TT on a different day in addition to your 20 minute TT.

See Attached.

Vivienne
02-20-2011, 06:35 AM
The critical power model is much more valid and would simply require an additional 3 to 5 minute TT on a different day in addition to your 20 minute TT.

See Attached.

Thanks. I'm re-reading Allen and Coggan's book.....I just got to those pages.

A lot of it is about analysing your data......which I would if I had the stuff for myself as poseurific as it might be. I just want to get a grasp of the concepts because I think that much focus would be a bit OTT for my class members. I remember AC mentioning that he fell back on a more informal type testing because, as excited as he was, the members didn't respond so enthusiastically.

What I started to do, regardless of the type of class that I'm doing, is to have periods.....I've used 3, 5 and 7 minutes.....when they experiment with finding the best power output they can sustain (without calling it anything) I tell you, those cadence meters and estimated power readings have done away with so many cadence checks and resistance cues in such a short time, it's unblievable.

What I'm trying to do is tread a fine line between generating interest and overloading the class. There are still a handful of members who don't seem interested.

Vivienne

liveon2wheels
02-21-2011, 05:38 AM
What I'm trying to do is tread a fine line between generating interest and overloading the class. There are still a handful of members who don't seem interested.
This is smart Vivienne. If you teach at a club where everyone is thrown together regardless of level or objective, this is absolutely the balance you need to find. Most challenging I am sure. One of the ways to pull this off though could be to make games out of these "tests". People can try to guess or target their final averages (cadence, power, HR), and you could give some sort of cheesy prize to whomever comes closest.

You might also ask management if you could do a dedicated POWER class once or twice per week, and state in the description that it will be more educational or whatever way to help "segregate" folks a little so that you can teach to the group more specifically.

Vivienne
02-21-2011, 08:07 AM
You might also ask management if you could do a dedicated POWER class once or twice per week, and state in the description that it will be more educational or whatever way to help "segregate" folks a little so that you can teach to the group more specifically.

Well, I have to confess, that's another motivation.....

When I auditioned with the GFD, the gym manager was there. I was enthusing so much about the feedback from the console and the benefits of power based training that he speculated about whether it'd work to add a power based class. If I ever did get that opportunity, I fancy it would only "fly" if it was sufficiently different from my "regular" class to be distinguishable as such.

Believe it or not, this particular class is at 10.30 am.......not exactly the sort of time-slot to attract "athletes in training" and for sure....we're a group of either SAHM's, Trophy Wives™ and Real Grown Ups™ (if you get my meaning) and I can't believe the level of interest. I've always kept a little package of relevant/interesting articles for anyone who might be interested. Last class, I just mentioned an article on bike set up.......and had a line waiting for a copy.

Although I had a lot of success with a 10.30 time slot down on LI (on the odd occasions she took my class, my daughter reckoned it was like some sort of cult following.....it creeped her out a bit) I really think this is more about the bike than it is me. It's also fun to feel like I'm learning along with them.

Vivienne

tking
02-21-2011, 12:33 PM
I always like to use the KISS approach (keep it simple ____ ). When we do our power assessments we come to a dead stop, reset the counters on the cyclometers, then start the 20-minute time trial. For the 20 minutes each athlete tries to produce his or her highest sustainable watts. At the end of the 20 minutes we immediately come to a dead stop (ouch) and let the cyclometer flash the average watts for the 20-minute time trial. After each athlete records their averages then they start pedaling again and start their recovery and cool-down. We use the average watts number straight up and donít factor it by 95% or whatever. Regardless of the method itís most important that you do the power assessments the same way each time.

I strongly approve of the approach that you need to differentitate a "power" class from a "spin" class.

Good luck!

Vivienne
02-21-2011, 04:25 PM
When we do our power assessments we come to a dead stop, reset the counters on the cyclometers, then start the 20-minute time trial. For the 20 minutes each athlete tries to produce his or her highest sustainable watts. At the end of the 20 minutes we immediately come to a dead stop (ouch) and let the cyclometer flash the average watts for the 20-minute time trial. After each athlete records their averages then they start pedaling again and start their recovery and cool-down.


The answer to the very question I was asking.....including the "ouch" for the dead stop.

When I've done these time trials for heart rate, it's always been easy to just push a couple of buttons on an HRM and get an average "on the fly". Not quite so easy when you have to come to a dead stop at exactly the wrong time to do it.

Many thanks

Vivienne

Funhog
02-21-2011, 07:35 PM
It is not necessary to come to a dead stop such that an "Ouch" is produced. If you take 10 or so seconds to stop, by slowing the legs down relatively quickly but without the jolt, that is not enough time to skew the results, since it's being averaged over 20-minutes.

I do wish instead of starting from a dead stop that the Keiser power meters had a "lap" function similar to HRMs, so that you don't include that first minute or so to try to ramp up and stabilize your power output to a sustainable pace. That might in fact be enough to slightly skew the results.

roycarl
02-22-2011, 09:03 AM
I've been running two class formats on the Keisers, and participants can choose which to sign up for:

"Indoor Cycling for Fitness" is just (just?) an aerobic workout and does not concern itself with power, except as a measure of how hard you're working. It meets once a week.

"Indoor Cycling for Performance" is a twice-a-week progressive class that started in November in which we do a week of power testing every 6 to 8 weeks (3-minute test one day, 20-minute test the other). Testing results are used to calculate each participant's five power zones, which they get on a cue card they can attach to their bike indicating where to be for wattage when, for example, we're working between 90 and 100% of FT.

The ICP format has been very well received.

Funhog
02-22-2011, 02:01 PM
I've been running two class formats on the Keisers, and participants can choose which to sign up for:

"Indoor Cycling for Fitness" is just (just?) an aerobic workout and does not concern itself with power, except as a measure of how hard you're working. It meets once a week.

"Indoor Cycling for Performance" is a twice-a-week progressive class that started in November in which we do a week of power testing every 6 to 8 weeks (3-minute test one day, 20-minute test the other). Testing results are used to calculate each participant's five power zones, which they get on a cue card they can attach to their bike indicating where to be for wattage when, for example, we're working between 90 and 100% of FT.

The ICP format has been very well received.

Nice. Curious - do the non ICP folks start wondering what the others are doing, maybe seeing that they might be having better results? Wouldn't it be nice to eventually convert them all?! So great though for you to offer the options.

roycarl
02-22-2011, 02:28 PM
Nice. Curious - do the non ICP folks start wondering what the others are doing, maybe seeing that they might be having better results? Wouldn't it be nice to eventually convert them all?! So great though for you to offer the options.

The participants who take ICF once a week aren't typically interested in improving their outdoor riding - they're mostly older ladies who like to go to the gym in the morning and socialize (there's lots of chit-chat during that class). When they've heard (from me and my ICP participants) about the kind of work we do in that class, they look like their heads are about to explode.

That's OK - there's a place for everyone, but not every place is for everyone.

Vivienne
03-31-2011, 06:34 AM
The participants who take ICF once a week aren't typically interested in improving their outdoor riding - they're mostly older ladies who like to go to the gym in the morning and socialize (there's lots of chit-chat during that class). When they've heard (from me and my ICP participants) about the kind of work we do in that class, they look like their heads are about to explode.

That's OK - there's a place for everyone, but not every place is for everyone.

Bumping this post because I've started to feel a little like I'm trying to please everyone and not doing the best job for everyone (at least, as far as they're concerned)

My numbers have dropped over the last few weeks.....although the weather hasn't warmed up too much, at least it's not snowing so maybe some folk are taking their workouts outside. I sent an e-mail off to my GFD to check on feedback (if any) and, although most has been very positive there've been a few negativews of the "too much talking" type complaint. Knowing human nature and how much more likely folk are to complain if they're dissatisfied than offer up compliments when they're pleased, I choose to interpret this as even more positive than "very positive" but it sure is a kicker......seeing as I'm actually not a yapper. But I do "instruct".....

My one class is actually sandwiched between two others so I don't get that spare time before class to set any newbies up and give them a bit of one on one time. As a consequence, many of my classes have inevitably been very "instruction focused" during the warm-up etc. (which is not a bad thing......it's not like the members as a whole show evidence of superior knowledge and skill etc. so at least everyone gets a chance to judge how justified they are in their 110% self confidence.....should they choose to listen)

So, right now, I seem to stuck between my small pool of regulars......who actually express that they don't care so much for my "right brain" classes and they like the training drills etcs.....and a diminishing majority who aren't interested in IDC for performance, who, if they did but know it prolly aren't even getting IDC for fitness either (just because the bike doesn't fall over, it doesn't mean that you're actually working any)

Vivienne

Todd S
03-31-2011, 10:18 AM
My two rules:

If it can't be explained in less than 15 - 20 seconds don't bring it up.

and

The 'Mister Ed Rule': Only talk when you have something to say.

amybatt
03-31-2011, 12:02 PM
I tell them what the ride will be: loop, hill repeat, all-terrain, interval, strength, etc. Then I start the music and invoke my rule: speak only to tell them what you're going to do, how hard you're going to do it, how long you're going to do it for. Unless I see flagrant abuses of form or safety, I don't say anything else*.

I don't think this is anything you don't know, but I think you have to look at your demographic and consider what they're there for. Some don't want training or instruction or even a good workout. They're just checking it off the list that they went to the gym today and did Spinning. If they're being flooded with information, training details or data they don't want every class, of course they won't come back. I find that although I'm extremely interested in training and quantifying and qualifying and improving my performance, not everyone is. Sometimes I have to remind myself of that.

*My exception is my HIIT training class, where they voluntarily sign up for 8 weeks of training with HRMs and ask questions CONSTANTLY and are always hungry for more information. Then I'm not too shy with what I tell them, but I never talk during the actual work efforts, because they want their focus to be on the work, not the trivia I'm giving out.

The other thing you could do, if you have a concept you want to get across is put a hand-out together, give it out before class and if they want it, they can read and process it on their own. There used to be a lot of this sort of thing on Spinning.com but I've taken to doing my own. You'd be surprised how many conversations have been started at the next class because the most unlikely suspects actually read them!

bike4fun
03-31-2011, 02:59 PM
I don't think this is anything you don't know, but I think you have to look at your demographic and consider what they're there for. Some don't want training or instruction or even a good workout. They're just checking it off the list that they went to the gym today and did Spinning. If they're being flooded with information, training details or data they don't want every class, of course they won't come back.


i was expressing frustation to one of my students/friends about an interval class i taught. i couldn't get rpe across to this one student who was hanging out in happy hard and basically rolling her eyes at me that class was too easy. my friend said..."that's what some people want. they just want to show up and don't care." lightbulb moment for me and just what you are talking about amy.

Vivienne
04-01-2011, 04:58 AM
i was expressing frustation to one of my students/friends about an interval class i taught. i couldn't get rpe across to this one student who was hanging out in happy hard and basically rolling her eyes at me that class was too easy. my friend said..."that's what some people want. they just want to show up and don't care." lightbulb moment for me and just what you are talking about amy.

Well, I'm sure that's a possibility.......that there are folk who pay their gym dues every month, take time out of their day to turn up, sit on a glorified log splitter (a.k.a bike saddle) for an hour, listen to Someone Else's music because they don't care. They're probably also pretty cool with making no fitness gains for this expenditure of $$bucks, time and discomfort. They probably exist everywhere (I know for sure I have dental colleagues who'll opine that they have patients who "don't care" about their dental health......as evidenced by the fact that they keep turning up to every appointment, checkbook in hand, thereby showing how little they care)

A more likely possibility, though, is that these "non carers" are just folk whose first (all?) IDC classes were of the type where you pick it up as you go along, who don't learn particularly well with seat of the pants learning .....and who're oblivious to their own faulty technique and/or heavily ingrained muscle memory sans feedback that they can grasp. They often care enough to drop IDC classes when they don't progress much beyond those minimal gains they got after the first few classes.

That's what struck me as nice about Roycarl's set-up......where he has 2 distinct classes a week.....and everyone knows what they're going to get ahead of time.

The interesting thing is that there is one *advertised* Intro to Spin class which I subbed once.....and where the members who were there actually just treat is as a regular early am Spin class and who actually reckoned that they didn't know why you should need an Intro to Spin class when you can just pick it up as you go along.

Vivienne

amybatt
04-01-2011, 08:06 AM
Well, I'm sure that's a possibility.......that there are folk who pay their gym dues every month, take time out of their day to turn up, sit on a glorified log splitter (a.k.a bike saddle) for an hour, listen to Someone Else's music because they don't care.

Not even just in Spinning. Go walk the fitness floor where the equipment and cardio machines are. How many people do you see sitting on a recumbent, 500 page novel in hand which they are thoroughly engrossed in, Dunkins iced coffee in the cup holder, pedaling 20 rpms with no resistance? They're checking "Go to Gym" off their to do list for the day, and obviously haven't experienced any fitness gains in the 12 years they've been doing this. Or in Step Aerobics, the three women always in the back who you can always hear chatting away over the music; this hour is their only time away from hubby and kids all week. Or the guy and woman, married to other people, who come to muscle conditioning class because this is where they can flirt unabashedly with each other away from the eye of their respective spouses. (yes, I have certain someones in mind when I write this.) Not everyone is there to bust a hump and improve.



A more likely possibility, though, is that these "non carers" are just folk whose first (all?) IDC classes were of the type where you pick it up as you go along, who don't learn particularly well with seat of the pants learning .....and who're oblivious to their own faulty technique and/or heavily ingrained muscle memory sans feedback that they can grasp. They often care enough to drop IDC classes when they don't progress much beyond those minimal gains they got after the first few classes.


I think the above-mentioned individuals are more common, however what you may also be up against is that you don't teach "aerobics on a bike" with the up-up-down-down WOOOOO HOOOOO style that may have preceded you. Some people like that....really. Some people think the more WOOO HOOOO you can do, the better, because that must be a wicked hard class if you're all wooo hooing like that. Some honestly don't care about form or technique because hey, you're just pedaling on a bike to no where, how hard can that be? You've obviously picked up on it as evidenced by this: "why you should need an Intro to Spin class when you can just pick it up as you go along." BINGO.

Ultimately I think it's a matter of style and what goes down with the masses. Maybe it was too harsh a transition for them. Maybe in order to keep up you just teach "your" rides with less of the preachy/teachy form stuff. If you're truly concerned about numbers, I'd weigh out who and how many seem eager for that against those who don't care, and teach to the middle ground. I know for certain there are people who won't come to my classes because they don't like my style; I prefer structure and a lot of work in the saddle. That's not for them. That's fine, there are other classes where they can get the lightning fast "sprints" for an entire song, 10 minute standing climbs and 4 songs worth of jumps. That's just not my style. But that's the beauty of having multiple instructors at one gym, hopefully there's something attractive to everyone.

Vivienne
04-01-2011, 09:47 AM
I prefer structure and a lot of work in the saddle. That's not for them. That's fine, there are other classes where they can get the lightning fast "sprints" for an entire song, 10 minute standing climbs and 4 songs worth of jumps. That's just not my style. But that's the beauty of having multiple instructors at one gym, hopefully there's something attractive to everyone.

I think this is pretty much the MO of most of the other instructors at this gym (except for the one who taught at what's now *my* time slot)

I'm wondering now if the large initial turnout was due to some folk trying out a new intructor to see if her style's any different from the old one......and it manifestly isn't. Not by much anyway.

My first few classes, I'd announce as an "Intro to Vivienne" class......just so they could get a feel for how I roll. When it comes to feedback, though, I have something of a hierarchy. For instance, I take more notice of unsolicited comments delivered at the time (good or bad......and, thus far, they've only ever been ultra positive) than when I ask for feedback. At the other extreme, although it's hard to ignore, I don't place too much store at all in complaints or criticisms given after the fact/behind my back/anonymously/by "one class wonders" etc.......neither does the GFD, it appears.

Reminds me a bit of back when I first started teaching.....had one class member who complained that I didn't have enough "songs with words". Obliged by putting playlists full of songs with words for the next 3 weeks (when the member didn't show) only to have her drive by on a day where I'd put together a playlist to appeal to someone who requested "more drums".......only to have her complain that I still wasn't playing enough "songs with words". Gave up with bothering too much about such stuff round about then.

Vivienne

liveon2wheels
04-03-2011, 02:56 AM
I take more notice of unsolicited comments delivered at the time I love this hierarchy of interpretation - very true to my experience.


Reminds me a bit of back when I first started teaching.....had one class member who complained that I didn't have enough "songs with words". Obliged by putting playlists full of songs with words for the next 3 weeks (when the member didn't show) only to have her drive by on a day where I'd put together a playlist to appeal to someone who requested "more drums".......only to have her complain that I still wasn't playing enough "songs with words". Gave up with bothering too much about such stuff round about then. Vivienne
Reminds me of what I teach my managers when they first begin managing people - rule of thumb to wit: 10% may love you, 10% may hate you, but the rest MUST respect you. Without that, you have nothing. If they let themselves get either too inflated by the first 10%, or too dejected at the second 10%, they'll never be effective for the 80% that they can actually help and influence (the real job of a good manager).

Vivienne
04-03-2011, 09:18 AM
So another perfick example of the incongruity of trying to deliver a worthwhile service to the general public..

Got offered an extra class at my "other gig".....the very nice fancy club that "only" has well maintained NXTs in a fully equipped cycle studio with a kick-butt sound system complete with functioning mic. and responsive A/C system and fans (none of which the gym with the Keisers has, BTW) Taught the first class this am....

Realised halfway through class that I was yapping/cuing/offering motivational insights etc. etc that I wouldn't even need to think of doing with the Keiser Krowd......ploughed on regardless....

So, as we were cooling down, one of the members raised her hand to interrupt whatever it was I was yapping about (oh gawd....wtf does this one want to complain about!!?!).....and offered up the opinion that she thought I had such a wonderfully quiet way of teaching and subtle way of getting everyone to work really hard.,,,and it a very nice change.....

I swear a couple more nodded their heads in agreement (or else they had some sort of nervous tic).....and someone else stayed after class to ask a question on something that I'd mentioned during class....

Like I'm sure Mark Twain would've said....It's a bit of a bugger wondering WTF to do to GET IT RITE!1!

Vivienne

liveon2wheels
04-04-2011, 02:57 AM
It's a bit of a bugger wondering WTF to do to GET IT RITE!1!
It sounds like you've already figured it out... just don't stress over it now, and you'll enjoy it more ;)

Vivienne
04-12-2011, 07:22 AM
Another possibly dumb question on utilising power output as a descriptor of effort.

So, I understand ....or at least I think I do....the relationship between bodyweight re: the power to weight ratio on a real bike. If you're an overweight lard-a$$ on a 40lb clunker trying to get up a hill, you have to work harder to get "there". There can't be the same relationship between weight and power output on a stationary bike, right?

Whilst I understand that folk who're overweight might well be a bit stronger than their skinny counterparts, thanks to having to lug an extra 20/50/100 pounds around (been doing yard work this weekend so I can relate), I wouldn't necessarily be proportionately "stronger" just for gaining an extra 20 lbs or so body fat would I?

I'm asking because I want to relate the work effort to what I'm cuing verbally in a way that cuts down on the verbals....specifically in what relates to "basement" intensity. I'm of the impression that something like a power output in watts of about 25-50% of bodyweight in pounds (yep I know it's it's *per kg* in the outdoor world but my classes are all indoor....and us Americans don't immediately get that fancy European weight stuff)

For sure, that's my ballpark warm-up intensity but is there a flaw in my thinking that this would transpose as a cadence/"gear" combo for most regular members? Note: I'm not asking from the perspective of political correctness or general sensitivity with respect to my members' weights.....just whether in general it would be applicable in a practical way.

Vivienne

roycarl
04-12-2011, 08:23 AM
Another possibly dumb question on utilising power output as a descriptor of effort.

So, I understand ....or at least I think I do....the relationship between bodyweight re: the power to weight ratio on a real bike. If you're an overweight lard-a$$ on a 40lb clunker trying to get up a hill, you have to work harder to get "there". There can't be the same relationship between weight and power output on a stationary bike, right?

Whilst I understand that folk who're overweight might well be a bit stronger than their skinny counterparts, thanks to having to lug an extra 20/50/100 pounds around (been doing yard work this weekend so I can relate), I wouldn't necessarily be proportionately "stronger" just for gaining an extra 20 lbs or so body fat would I?

I'm asking because I want to relate the work effort to what I'm cuing verbally in a way that cuts down on the verbals....specifically in what relates to "basement" intensity. I'm of the impression that something like a power output in watts of about 25-50% of bodyweight in pounds (yep I know it's it's *per kg* in the outdoor world but my classes are all indoor....and us Americans don't immediately get that fancy European weight stuff)

For sure, that's my ballpark warm-up intensity but is there a flaw in my thinking that this would transpose as a cadence/"gear" combo for most regular members? Note: I'm not asking from the perspective of political correctness or general sensitivity with respect to my members' weights.....just whether in general it would be applicable in a practical way.

Vivienne

I think you may be confusing watts with perceived effort.

Watts are difficult to cue unless everyone has a baseline for how many watts they can produce at a given effort level, which is why in my classes we do regular "time trial" and "max power" tests to establish zones. Then because everyone has done testing and has received a cue card telling them that, for example, their zone 4 is from 183 to 211 watts, they know where they should be working when I tell them "middle of zone 4".

Watts aren't dynamic - calibration issues aside, they're a hard number, and they don't change with how much you weigh. I always tell my participants that if they're pedaling 75 watts, they could be powering a 75-watt lightbulb (and, for the most part, that's true). But some of my people can barely power a Christmas tree bulb, and some could light up Times Square - so telling people to go at 50% of their weight in watts isn't going to work because some are strong enough to generate 3+ watts per kilogram and some can barely manage half a watt per kilogram, so it isn't going to feel like the same amount of effort for everyone. Half the class might be drenched in sweat and ready to die, and the other half wouldn't even be breathing hard.

To try putting it one more way: giving everyone the same watts to work at would be like telling a group of runners of different abilities, "run the next set at a 5-minute pace" when you should be telling them, "run at your 10K pace." Or telling a strength training group, "lift 250 pounds this set" versus "lift 85% of your max this set".

Vivienne
04-13-2011, 05:46 AM
To try putting it one more way: giving everyone the same watts to work at would be like telling a group of runners of different abilities, "run the next set at a 5-minute pace" when you should be telling them, "run at your 10K pace." Or telling a strength training group, "lift 250 pounds this set" versus "lift 85% of your max this set".

That's exactly what I'm not doing.

I'm referring to the power charts based on bodyweight for indoor cyclists in Cycling Fusion's Power Training course book. FWIW the figures are dramatically different from the power charts for outdoor cyclists so I'm assuming that they're based and calculated to some degree on the principle that extra bodyweight translates to extra lean body mass along with extra fat (it usually does)

What I'm looking for specifically is a way to cue basic warm up and recovery intensities that'd embrace the power console.......part of what I'm doing is trying to pique interest in a real power based class.....and at the same time, seeing if it's worthwhile to bother trying. I have just the one class right now which is a mixed bunch with regard to interest, attendance, fitness etc. I'm a long way from doing any meaningful testing just yet. One consistency is that no one wears a heart rate monitor. Invariably there are a few who, regardless of the cues I'm giving, manifestly have too high a "gear" to start with as evidenced by the fact that they're grinding a bit during warm up instead of "rolling at an *organic* pace" and when I cue an increase in resistance their legs virtually stop dead. I'd be happy to leave 'em at it if they were happy and doing their own thing.....but these'll be the folk who complain it's too hard or ask what gear they should be on, so it seems to me that they actually want teacher input, even if they appear to be ignoring what I'm doing right now.

I have one class I pull out every once in a while as an intro to relative newbies and a self check for everyone else. The first drill is "8 gears for 8 minutes" which we did during Gene's course at ICI/PRO (well, something similar.....Tom Scotto also does something similar in his "Turkey Training" class) This in theory ought to give anyone who's starting off at "basement"/warm-up intensity, a taste of intensity ranges, usual caveats of outliers in fitness levels, beta-blocker users, poorly calibrated bikes, Libertarians etc etc. excepted, no? There are always some.....and not always the newbies.....whose cadence starts to drop or are sucking wind after maybe 3 or 4 add ons.

When I warm up per my own cues, my "basement" falls around the 50-60 watt mark (checked it yesterday).....just under the 50% of my bodyweight. Using my range of 25-50%, it's a bit hard to see how anyone could be overfaced by this.....the guy just discharged from cardiac rehab excepted (had that happen once) Another FWIW, I can't say that I've ever noticed many members who're warming up "too easy"

Maybe Gene could chip in.

Vivienne

liveon2wheels
04-13-2011, 08:16 AM
Watts aren't dynamic - calibration issues aside, they're a hard number, and they don't change with how much you weigh. I always tell my participants that if they're pedaling 75 watts, they could be powering a 75-watt lightbulb (and, for the most part, that's true). But some of my people can barely power a Christmas tree bulb, and some could light up Times Square - so telling people to go at 50% of their weight in watts isn't going to work because some are strong enough to generate 3+ watts per kilogram and some can barely manage half a watt per kilogram, so it isn't going to feel like the same amount of effort for everyone. Half the class might be drenched in sweat and ready to die, and the other half wouldn't even be breathing hard. I applaud your work in getting people to their own zones, and teaching Power on a "Relative Basis", something I stress profusely in my workshops. However, I want to point out that I never contend that Watts are dynamic, only that people have different abilities that vary so much we had to create two separate charts to contain the breadth of these individuals differences. Nevertheless, the power to weight ratio is still the determining factor in my opinion, when it comes to Indoor Cycling training. The principle reason being that most group classes (unless it is specifically designed for time trialists, etc) will want to improve climbing power, and will simulate climbing in general when working on power.

As it relates to climbing and the fact that you are not moving your bike and body, the underlying assumption is that you are simulating the grade and effects of gravity by putting drag on the fly wheel. The amount of inertia you must overcome will then be impacted by two key factors that relate directly to an individuals' weight:

A. The amount of muscle mass in a large person's legs compared to a smaller person. Assuming a fairly equal proportion of muscle to girth, those with more muscle will generally generate more power. This is why at an elite & professional level, given a relatively equal measure of fitness between men and women, men will generate more power than women. Here's a quote from a related article:

"Females, on average, have less total muscle mass than males. As a result, maximal strength measures as well as maximal power measures (power = force/time) are reduced." http://www.shapefit.com/exercise/men-vs-women-exercising.html

The conclusion is thus, the heavier/larger the individual, the greater quantity of muscle, the more watts they can produce. This is why larger, heavier cyclists produce more raw wattage, which creates a distinct advantage on time trials and sprinting on the pro circuit.

B. Gravity works. Drop a penny from a 20 story building, and it will put a ding in the sidewalk... actually more of a scratch. Now drop a 200 pound weight with the same shape and size, and it will likely crack, or crush the sidewalk. What happened? The force of gravity was the same, but the weight or mass of the object changed the force or power it produced, thus the different result. A 200 pound man will use his weight (predominantly when standing) to create much greater force on the flywheel than a 120 lb man. BUT... in this case, it is NOT raw watts that wins the day (as compared to a flat road effort). In this case, the higher power to weight ratio is what produces more speed when gravity is at play (climbing), and hence the best climbers in pro cycling are the smaller, lighter guys.

Long story short - muscle mass, and gravity make the difference even in an indoor class, and by using climbing as what we focus on for training, we can "equalize" the environment by focusing on Watts/Lb.

JFP
06-15-2011, 05:22 PM
The participants who take ICF once a week aren't typically interested in improving their outdoor riding - they're mostly older ladies who like to go to the gym in the morning and socialize (there's lots of chit-chat during that class). When they've heard (from me and my ICP participants) about the kind of work we do in that class, they look like their heads are about to explode.

That's OK - there's a place for everyone, but not every place is for everyone.
I think that is right. I admire just about everyone who manages to get themselves to the gym. They are still the minority of the American public. This group knows exercise is good for them.They don't want to "kill" themselves. They are not going to have fitness careers or run a race. They find instructors (me for one) who accept that attitude.Fitness can be fun, Other people, who have serious fitness goals find instructors who embrace their attitude...."a place for everyone"

Vivienne
06-16-2011, 08:27 AM
I think that is right. I admire just about everyone who manages to get themselves to the gym. They are still the minority of the American public. This group knows exercise is good for them.They don't want to "kill" themselves. They are not going to have fitness careers or run a race. They find instructors (me for one) who accept that attitude.Fitness can be fun, Other people, who have serious fitness goals find instructors who embrace their attitude...."a place for everyone"

I don't think that human physiologic responses actually make any sort of distinction between whether folk want to become elite athletes or "just" be the best they can be.

It's either U R DOIN' IT RITE!!1! .. or .. UR DOIN' IT RONG!!1!

It is what it is....and it ain't what it ain't

Vivienne